Day's career has just taken off, whereas Hanley's first taste of success came about a decade ago with her band Letters to Cleo. But there's a parallel as well. Howie's self-released debut album, Australia, has just been reissued by Epic; Hanley's debut CD with Letters to Cleo, Aurora Gory Alice, was also an independent release that got picked up by a major label. So we figured she might be able to offer some advice to Day as he attempts to go national. We also thought that Day might be able to shed some light on how things have changed over the past decade, with the rise of the Internet (which has been a big asset to Day) and all the controversy over digital rights, as Hanley prepares to re-enter the fray with her first solo album (due from Zoë/Rounder in early August). What we didn't expect was the degree to which Day and Hanley, who had never formally met, would find parallels between their careers and the ease with which they would get along as we sat in one of the lounges at Q Division Studio in Davis Square and discussed everything from playing cover tunes to dealing with major-label A&R scouts. Here's some of what they talked about.

Phoenix: Howie, you recently signed with Epic, and you're making the jump from a regional scene to the national spotlight - much as Letters to Cleo did a decade ago. What are you expecting?
HD: It's going to be weird. I'm going to dance around and go to K-Mart and Best Buy just to see myself on the shelves. I'll be psyched.
KH: How have you been distributing it up until now, just at shows, or . . .
HD: All at shows and over the Internet.
KH: But it hasn't had any sort of shelf appearance?
HD: Not really. Not except for a little bit here in Boston - just whoever picked up the phone and called and ordered it. I didn't push it on anybody. There was no proper distribution really.
KH: That's such a great way to do things, and it seems like even if it's short-lived, it's such a great way to do things right now.
HD: I don't even know how bands did anything before the Internet.
KH: We had this big Prodigy network of people who would come out and see us in different cities and stuff. I remember we had 10 or 15 people who would come see us in Washington, DC, and they all met on Prodigy. It wasn't huge the way it is now. No one had Web sites or anything like that, but there was definitely communication and stuff from the nerdier people of the world.

Phoenix: So, Howie, the Internet has been a big part of your marketing strategy so far?
HD: Absolutely. That was pretty much our only marketing tool. It's how we advertised shows, and how people knew where the shows were, when they were, how we sold the CD, and just how we kept in touch with fans.

Phoenix: And you ran it as a business early on.
HD: I started playing gigs when I was 15, so I hadn't really written much at that point, but I wanted to get out and play live because I kind of liked it. To start dealing with audiences was kind of fun. So slowly, from then till now, it just turned over and became more of my own stuff and less about covers.

Phoenix: Kay, with Letters to Cleo you guys were writing your own songs right from the start, right?
KH: No, no. It's such a bummer, but back in the day there was more of an almost pay-to-play system in Boston. We'd do things like three sets at places like Faneuil Hall or down on the Cape a couple of times a month, and we'd have to supplement our own songs with covers. So we did a lot of that to pay the rehearsal-space rent and things like that.

Phoenix: So your beginnings weren't that much different from Howie's?
KH: Very, very early on.

Phoenix: What do the two of you think is the best way to start building a fan base?
HD: People would much rather discover you at a live show than from a single that's pumped through the radio and forced down their throat.
KH: Oh definitely. That's an excellent point. You have to have a work ethic, you have to be willing to get out there and play. You have to be willing to play at some pretty terrible places. You have to be willing to play to no one. And you have to be willing to be really poor.

Phoenix: But at the same time you were both pretty successful before signing to a major label. You were making money and making a living.
KH: We weren't making a living. We were all still waiting tables, but we did definitely not have to put money into the band. The band was paying for itself, and tours were paying for themselves.
HD: Just to get to that level is like . . .
KH: It's huge.
HD: That's all the crap work. Just getting up to everything being self-sufficient.
KH: Now you don't even have a band. It's just you and your Line 6 pedals.
HD: I keep all the money.
KH: [laughs] That's great, that's awesome.
HD: It's definitely a weird thing to mix with your passion, your music.
KH: You mean, to have to deal with the commerce part of it.

Phoenix: The tension between art and commerce is . . .
KH: It's as old as man.

Phoenix: Do you remember when success first happened for Letters to Cleo?
KH: Yeah I do, I do. It was a very exciting period; it was also scary. But Howie, I heard that you weren't going to sign a deal. I heard that you were just like, "No way!" You held out for the big money . . .
HD: That was the big bluff.
KH: You held out for the cash, didn't you? I know you did. That was the plan, right?
HD: The plan was to be self-sufficient and go out and get a fan base we could tour on, so we could be self-sufficient, so I wouldn't end up one of those artists or one of those bands who were on a label and lived and died by the label.
KH: So if everything all goes to shit, you still have your fan base and you still have people who love you and will stick by you. Have you had any sort of backlash from your fans?
HD: No, not really . . . they've actually been pretty good about it. I'm just so honest about the whole situation, with them especially. I've said before in interviews, yeah, if the label thing doesn't work out and they decide tomorrow that they don't want to push my music anymore, and they don't care, which obviously we've all seen happen, then I'll still have that base that I had before. I'll at least be as well off as I was before I signed a deal, which wouldn't be a terrible place to be. It's not the ideal situation, but I'm not living and dying by radio and the label.
KH: See, you're in such a great predicament. You should be very, very grateful for that. But, you've worked very hard.

Phoenix: Well, Kay, you're in a similar situation now, in the sense that you're performing under your own name and putting out a record under your own name. It's got to be a lot different from having the protection of a band.
HD: It's more empowering . . .
KH: But there's more pressure. It's definitely scary. But, I don't know, I just feel I've been trying to put this record out for a really long time.

Phoenix: When and where is it coming out?
KH: August 13. It's coming out on Zoë/Rounder. It's a pretty low-profile situation, which is nice. It's almost like a home for lost artists of the '90s [laughs]. Music is definitely the central focus of my life, but it's not the only focus anymore. So, I'll tour a little bit. I definitely won't do what I used to do, which is just be a total road dog. I mean I can't, I have a kid.

Phoenix: If you had to give Howie advice on going from being a regional act to being a national one, what would you say are the biggest pitfalls?
KH: Giving advice would indicate that I've learned something, which I haven't [laughs]. I think I would take advice from Howie before I would give him any. I mean, he's just doing everything right. A big problem I had when I was in Howie's position was having this really shitty attitude about everything and having this whole attachment to indie cred and all that shit. I mean, stuff that doesn't translate into anything real. I was pissed off about everything good that happened to us, and I considered success an albatross. It seems like Howie is embracing success in a really positive way.

Phoenix: Howie, you've been on the road since you were 15 - why so long in getting to the national scene?
HD: A lot of that was I felt like I needed time to kind of develop myself as a songwriter. I was coming off, at that point, still doing covers and stuff. Still doing those shows where you had no identity. So I was trying to find that identity a little bit. Taking it slow just to give myself time to grow, so I didn't have to grow up in public completely.
KH: You've probably done the stupidest things already, when not many people were looking.
HD: Oh yeah.
KH: You learn a lot of lessons early on, you do a lot of stupid stuff.
HD: That's the time for it, when no one is looking.

Phoenix: There are artists who are concerned with maintaining a certain public persona, but when you go on stage, it doesn't seem that you're concerned with image.
KH: Not having an image is having an image for a lot of people.
HD: That's the biggest thing these days.

Phoenix: What?
HD: Not having an image as an image. All the reality shows and The Osbournes. Sometimes people in their real state are just as funny as people acting like someone else . . . or just as interesting.

Phoenix: What for you at this point are your biggest concerns as you look toward having this record come out at the national level?
HD: In the beginning it was just me and my manager, and that was it. We had total control over everything that happened and everything I did. But, now there's a whole team of people who probably have their own perception of who I am. And they're working to kind of exploit that. I guess a concern is trying to keep everybody in line and having everybody keep the same vision. Not having it all run off in different directions.

Phoenix: Kay knows all about that. When Letters to Cleo signed and became a national band, you lost a lot of control.
KH: I fucking hated it. Hated it, hated it, I hated it so much. I hated everybody [laughs]. No, actually I loved our A&R guy up until the very, very end. I just loved him. He was so great and so smart and just totally old-school. I mean, he signed Pat Benatar. He was very LA - completely different from us. But I just trusted him. I think that was the only thing that saved me from completely sabotaging everything.

Phoenix: Howie, do you feel you have that?
HD: I feel like the core team of people who I work with over there, whether it is my A&R person or my publicist or whoever, I feel like they kind of get it. And I make a big effort to ensure that - aside from just going into their offices and sitting at their desks, I'll go out and hang out with them. We were recently in New York throwing down a few with them and really trying to get to know them and letting them get to know me. I think the better you know the people you're working with, the smoother it will all run. So many times at labels the band might be thinking, "Oh, we'll make this record and it will sell this many copies, and then we'll make this record and we'll build." But the record companies, especially now, are just looking for that quick fix.
KH: Totally.
HD: And they're looking to sell right out of the box. And we were adamant about choosing a record company that didn't have that mentality. We wanted them to know going in, "Look this is the way we want to do it, and if you're not into that, please tell us, because otherwise it'll be disastrous."
KH: There is a bottom line to be met . . . but who knows, maybe it's possible that your label is truly interested in your development. And one can only hope that that's true. There are still good people in the music industry who truly care about artists, and there are artists in the industry that are truly believed in. It can't exist purely for the money. It can't. The music industry cannot survive without artists on many different levels. I mean, not everybody can be Jennifer Lopez and Incubus.
HD: Hey, why did you use people from Epic?
KH: Because there's only one label, sweetie.
HD: Making fun of my label?
KH: I think Josie and the Pussycats came out on that, didn't it?

Phoenix: It did.
HD: Soon we'll all be signed by Microsoft music. Just one corporation that does everything in the world.
KH: It's so cyclical, it'll change, maybe. I think that Hoobastank and bands like that are the Winger of this decade. Everything that's happening now is sort of like . . . remember that nasty period of music in the late '80s/early '90s when rock and roll was represented by Winger, Poison, and bands like that? And then Nirvana came and made a laughingstock of all of them. So it seems to me that's where we're at now. Rock music has just become so disposable and so depleted of any meaning that something has to happen.
HD: I think Nickelback have some really deep lyrics.
KH: You do?
HD: Yeah, the opening line of that Spider-Man song, "I'm so high I can almost hear a bird," I mean, just gag me right there. Pulls on the heartstrings. The name of my next album is going to be Don't Buy My Album Because I Have a Gut. And the cover is going to be a picture of me with no shirt on and a gut.
KH: I don't think your record label is going to let you put out an album that begins with Don't Buy My Record Because . . .
HD: Sons of bitches . . . they're already trying to control me.
KH: They're stomping all over my creativity, man!

Phoenix: But the two of you do bring up the point of how to reach people, and for the most part, you do that through commerce.
HD: Or people can just download it. But I'll pretend that doesn't happen.
KH: There was a period where I was getting a little bit into Napster, specifically I'm thinking of this one band called Remy Zero. I remember seeing their name up on Napster and thinking, I remember I really like that song by them, and then downloading a couple of songs and thinking, "Wow, this band is really good," and then going out and buying their record.
HD: Yeah, it's been a double-edged sword.
KH: I think it turns people on . . . I don't think people should be getting music for free, I suppose. In theory I guess it's theft. If it's just a single and it's just about hearing the song once or twice, or it's just a novelty, it's just as easy to download it and wear it out in two days. But of course this is what the labels get for refusing to release singles. So fuck 'em.

Phoenix: Do you feel that artists have to draw lines over what they're willing and not willing to do to reach people? For you, Kay, it was the Melrose Place soundtrack that launched your first big single.
KH: At the time it seemed like a real aberration for a band to put a song on a soundtrack and have that be their most successful song. But now it's commonplace, and since then we've been on a million soundtracks. In fact, now people are selling their songs through car commercials and shit, so the standard of what is selling out has changed substantially. But at the time, it seemed to me that it was a huge sellout.
HD: I think you're right. I think placement has become a more accepted form of music commerce than it used to be. With your Moby and Sting. What was it, a Jaguar commercial?
KH: They're heralded as geniuses for thinking of that and it's like, "Wait a minute, we all thought of this, and we all decided to not do it so that we wouldn't have to stand the complete derision of our peers and a major scolding from everyone around us."
HD: There's still a line to be drawn, though. I don't want to be, like, the Juicy Fruit guy. It's tough. You wouldn't think that the Verve would have ever broken in America because of a Nike ad. But they did.

Phoenix: What is the biggest difference between the music industry today and when you first started?
KH: It's impossible to say, because to the bands doing the radio-show circuit right now, this is the golden age of rock. It's not my music, it's not music that I love, it's not music that I care about. So to me it's shit. To some people it's a really awesome time for music. So I can't just say music today just really sucks. I think it does, but that doesn't mean it's true.
HD: Music that I like is always there, but it's just a matter of how far you have to dig to get to it. I think that as far as comparing this country to Europe or somewhere else, the mainstream here is definitely for the lowest common denominator. Some of the stuff is really wild. I'll look at the #1 record in Billboard and I don't even know what it is. That kind of freaks me out
KH: I'm just thinking of one difference that I think really needs to change. Things are too compartmentalized. It's like Top 40, Active Rock, Modern Rock, Adult Contemporary . . . and there can't be any mixing or melding. And you think about back in the olden days, '70s AM radio, where you just had such an unbelievably eclectic mix of music in a row. It won't ever happen again.

Phoenix: Howie, how would you like to be perceived?
HD: Oh, what compartment do I want to be in? I don't know. I have a hard time with that question. I don't think it would be good for my credibility to just jump out and be a Top 40 artist right away. I like the idea of starting with college radio and then maybe getting on some secondary alternative stations. If you climb the ladder to Top 40 stations gradually, more people feel like they discovered you for themselves. And those are the fans you really want - the ones who really care about the music. It's like David Gray. He started out on the low level of radio and he was only on a few stations that I didn't know about. Then, with a lot of touring, he built it up from there. It's a game - it's just a game of trying to be commercial without seeming like you're too commercial.

Phoenix: Kay, did you have some of the same concerns when you were in Howie's position?
KH: When I should have known all of that, when I should have taken a more active role in my career, I didn't have any idea what I was doing. I just had no idea.

Phoenix: Both of you have had time to confront the commercial end of things, but there are a lot of artists who never get to that point.
HD: They're the coolest.
KH: We want to be like them. Seriously, though, Letters to Cleo were writing extremely commercial music. And I'm sure a lot of the things we did could be seen as careerist. But, really, we just liked playing. We loved to be on the road, all the time. And that wasn't anybody's decision but ours.

Phoenix: Howie, you've been doing the same thing. You haven't been afraid to get out there and play. A lot.
HD: Yeah, I did like 297 shows last year.
KH: But you love that, right? Do you do it in a van or a car?
HD: This last tour we were in a van with a trailer. But this summer we're going to have a bus.

Phoenix: Is there anything you want to ask each other?
KH: What's your sign?
HD: Ah, I enjoy long walks on the beach.

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October 1, 2002, 1:00 am Two of a Kind :: Kay Hanley and Howie Day Compare Notes This year there were some interesting parallels between our Best New Act and Best Male Vocalist - Howie Day - and our Best Female Vocalist - Kay Hanley - on the local side of the Best Music Poll ballot. Both artists are out there performing under their own name, and both have paid their fair share of dues in a business that doesn't always reward hard work. There is, of course, one big difference: